As always, this writing is a work in progress.
In the previous shiur we have the following;
“Our consciousness of reality is inextricably bound to limits/Hagboles. Consciousness and awareness is all about defining reality, which means realizing its limits. So it would seem that we shouldn’t be able to conceptualize other than limits. Yet there is one step further that we can go, namely, theorizing about negating these limits. Maybe we cannot conceptualize it, but we can theorize about taking away the limits of everything and anything. That is presumably the closest we can get to the "beyond".
In Sum;This Unfathomable Beyond gets expressed at our level by the term Ein Sof. That is the ultimate we can go on a conceptual level. We may phrase this as follows;The Beyond as it enters/shines into our conceptual framework is concieved as Ein Sof”
From the above paragraphs it would seem that we can logically assume that in the realm of Hagbalah we can identify the Ein Sof.
Yet, how can we really go outside of Hagboleh? Isn’t it contradictory to say that a mugbal goes/sees outside of itself? Aren’t you then saying that it is not mugbal? Yet here we are conceptualizing about it nevertheless.
It seems that although we can conceptualize/theorize about this level, it is not a natural byproduct of being Mugbal, it would be and additional element in our being (i.e. over and above our existence in the ‘limited/defined realm)
Looking at the above from a different angle, let’s talk about ‘consciousnesses. We can’t really understand consciousness while being completely within the realm of Hagaboleh. In Hagboleh there are only defined entities, there’s nothing sort of outside Hagboleh looking in. There would then be no “I” that is conscious.
So in essence, when we “theorize about negating these limits” we have entered into a new realm, the realm of Ohr Ein Sof. That would then be the deepest (semi)conceptual level of our being/existence.
It is, then, not something that comes part and parcel along with the realm of Hagabalah. If so, from our point of view (we always talk about ‘our point of view’ because we never talk from the point of view of the Beyond, see previous Shiur) we see this Ein Sof as ‘willed’ not automatic.
But on the other hand, by doing that (i.e. seeing it as willed) we are then completely separating It from the Beyond, and making it just another defined entity. (see later why “will” implies separation from the entity that is doing the willing)
Hmm… in a tight spot here, eh. To will or not to will, that is the question.
Yet on the other hand (the last hand, promise) it does come along (i.e. it’s deduced) from our conceptualization of reality.
So in the end we see it now as an integral part of our hagbalahdig existence, but we also understand that from the standpoint of pure Hagbalah we wouldn’t see this Ein Sof, hence it is not a necessary deduction from Hagbalah.
Yeaaahh, huuuh, ummmm, ok I'm with you there, but we gotta start somewhere.
Friday, January 16, 2009
Friday, January 9, 2009
Hi Everyone,
Yes, we finally arrived. Our shiur has its very own Blog. After all with such technologically advanced participants, how could this shiur survive without a blog.
Hold it right there, who says we all agree to have this blog? Hmm good question. Didn't think about it. But now that you’re asking... I would suggest that "Hee Moisiv Loh, Ve'Hee Me'Farik, please be so kind and write all your Terutzim or maybe you Teiku, here on the blog. We can then have here a healthy and presumably hefty debate on the merits of your position or disposition.
In the tradition of the Heilige Bais Hillel and more so if you want to achieve their everlasting victory (oops, until Moshiach comes, that is), it is suggested that before you totally demolish any logical reasoning for having this blog, go ahead and enumerate all the amazing benefits we can glean from it. Be'bchinas "Hikdimu Divrey Bais Shamai Le'Divreihem".
Umm... so where am I? Yeah, ahem, let me try to talk about the issues touched upon (yes only touched upon) at the Shiur. Please have in mind that it's Friday afternoon and I didn't even go to the Mikvah yet, so it won't be so well organized. But, as R' Bachya writes, Min Ha'Zehirus Shloi LeHarbos LeHizoher. On that note, Here goes;
The Sefer Otzros Chaim is explaining the logical progression of existence, (as opposed to chronological. Example, 2 is always after 1 logically, but chronologically they could come into existence at the same instant). Starting right at the beginning, at the very first, at the very deepest, level of existence.
The Sefer starts by saying that this very first level is where we conceptualize existence without its forms, without its definitions.(Which means that we give it no limits) Existence in its ultimate purity is obviously the first level of existence (seems very similar to the age old concept of 'Choimer Ve'tzurah'. But while it is regularly understood as "Matter and Form, we see it here as Exsitence and Form)
Now, once we postulate this unlimited existence (Ein Sof)we want to progress to the next level, to the level of differentiation in existence. But we are confronted with a conundrum, namely, being that we have established a First Step of Unlimited Total Existence, we cannot go anywhere from there for we have effectually closed any possibility for any "other" existences. Existence that knows no boundaries is all invasive, is All, period.
How is it possible to even consider postulating any 'next step' when this first step is all encompassing, this unlimited Existence does not allow for anything else other than this pure Ein Sof. There is no place for anything else, for wherever anything else wants to be, it is already occupied by this limitless Existence.
Yet, (the Sefer goes on), this very same Beli Gevul, "wills" for a world so that It can be realized as Rachum Chanun etc.
EXPLANATION; OF “WILL”
Now, when the word 'Will' is used here it is in the sense of free will, for He/It is not constrained by any characteristics or concepts, which lead It/Him to do anything. So that whatever the next level may be we have to agree that it is not in any way a 'matter of course' from this first pure Existence.
We will always have to realize that it is not a "natural or logical" necessity. In common terminology we would call it a 'whim'. Nothing in the 'nature' or 'character' of this first Existence leads to this next step, for there is no 'character' at all there.
We claim a next step not by logical inference (which would then mean that it is a logical necessity) but simply by observing the brute facts.
We are confronted with the fact of something (seemingly) other than this first Existence. We then obviously ascertain that this Existence wanted or “willed” something else. (We are very clever here, we "know" what He wants by dint of seeing what He did. Be'Bchinas this kid complaining "Rebbe, Moshie Hut Mich Gevolt Geben a Potch, so the Rebbe asks him Ve'Azoi Veistu? Veil Er Hut Mir Gegeben").
EXPLANATION OF EIN SOF WANTING TO BE REALIZED AS RACHUM, CHANUN:
Although we know that Existence has no character traits as discussed above, if we can identify Its "whims" as it express itself in our reality, we will call these 'whims' Its character traits as It relates to us.
Think of a person with a split personality who always relates to you in a certain manner. You will identify his character traits (only as a practical matter) as per his consistent relation to you. You will know that he has a whole other set of characteristics, but when you are only interested in how this person relates and affects you, those characteristics are what matters.
In sum;
However Existence express itself to us, we will call those expression Its character traits. Simply as a practical matter on how to relate to It.
The Sefer (as per Pesukey HaTorah) identifies these expressions/characteristics as Rachum Chanun etc.It is then fair to say that because He wanted to be Rachum, Chanun etc.. He therefore created the world, for as above (with that child), if that is what is expressed it obviously is what It/He wants to express.
So we are now faced with this conundrum of how do we somehow logicaly conceptualize a reality that encompasses an Unlimited Existence [Ein Sof] yet still allows for other exitences as well.
The Sefer's solution; We can somehow conceptualize this unlimited Existence, contracting itself so as to allow for other existence to exist. (If my memory serves me well this will be explained by our Magid Shiur at another Shiur)
AD KAAN TOICHEN HASEFER. (With some explanation added here and there, I might say)
------------------------------------------------
The Magid Shiur then posed the following questions.
1) a- Why the Sefer uses Ein Sof Rather than HaKodush Boruch Hu? "Hakodush" refers to His Being proper, and gives us the notion that He is Kodush Umufrash, completely out of our reality etc. Whereas Ein Sof only talks about the fact that this Being is never ending. It doesn't strongly relay the notion that His Essence is completely Beyond.
b- If already talking about its limitlessness He should be referred to as Ein Techilah. That, somehow makes us think more about His whole Kiyum (I'm not clear on this second point).
2) If we are talking about God, and Him/It being totally beyond (disregarding the lack of Hadgasha of this point by using the name Ein Sof, as per par. 1), how can we ask any questions as if we have some knowledge of His/Its characteristics? How are we positing that He/It is all over, so much so that there's no room for anything else. What do we know, and why are we talking about the realm of 'BEYOND'?
These questions leads Chabad Chasidus to interpret the text as follows;
We are avadai not talking about HaKodush... He is way beyond. We are already referring to a world of Hagballah and in that world (which we are in there solidly huh) we should ask ourselves what is the deepest level of "beyond" we can abstract while still on terra firma. What is the ultimate abstraction we can have of our reality? Which will tell us what the first (logical) level/cause of our existence is.
Our consciousness of reality is inextricably bound to limits/Hagboles. Consciousness and awareness is all about defining reality, which means realizing its limits. So it would seem that we shouldn’t be able to conceptualize other than limits. Yet there is one step further that we can go, namely, theorizing about negating these limits. Maybe we cannot conceptualize it, but we can theorize about taking away the limits of everything and anything. That is presumably the closest we can get to the "beyond".
To sum up;
We know that (our) Core Existence [Havayah] is completely beyond conception but we still want to relate conceptually to (our) Core Existence at the deepest level possible. So we came up with Unlimited.We will call that level God (although we know that at that level It is already in a Levush) because conceptually that is our ultimate Existence.
[It may very well be possible to "experience" God non-conceptually and there we can presumably go deeper than the level we have now. This is a whole other topic of discussion]
In Sum;
This Unfathomable Beyond gets expressed at our level by the term Ein Sof. That is the ultimate we can go on a conceptual level. We may phrase this as follows;
The Beyond as it enters/shines into our conceptual framework is concieved as Ein Sof
Please note, it is not the Beyond that has diminished its fullness of being, it is that we have limited our receiving capabilites due to us only accepting concepts.
The above narrative doesn't seem to require any Dogma whatsoever.
All the above is only my interpretation of what our Esteemed Magid Shiur has explained to us along the course of these shiurim.It would be wonderful to have input from all participants and especially from the Magid Shiur.
Ok guys it's really late and I wasn't kidding about the mikvah.
Yes, we finally arrived. Our shiur has its very own Blog. After all with such technologically advanced participants, how could this shiur survive without a blog.
Hold it right there, who says we all agree to have this blog? Hmm good question. Didn't think about it. But now that you’re asking... I would suggest that "Hee Moisiv Loh, Ve'Hee Me'Farik, please be so kind and write all your Terutzim or maybe you Teiku, here on the blog. We can then have here a healthy and presumably hefty debate on the merits of your position or disposition.
In the tradition of the Heilige Bais Hillel and more so if you want to achieve their everlasting victory (oops, until Moshiach comes, that is), it is suggested that before you totally demolish any logical reasoning for having this blog, go ahead and enumerate all the amazing benefits we can glean from it. Be'bchinas "Hikdimu Divrey Bais Shamai Le'Divreihem".
Umm... so where am I? Yeah, ahem, let me try to talk about the issues touched upon (yes only touched upon) at the Shiur. Please have in mind that it's Friday afternoon and I didn't even go to the Mikvah yet, so it won't be so well organized. But, as R' Bachya writes, Min Ha'Zehirus Shloi LeHarbos LeHizoher. On that note, Here goes;
The Sefer Otzros Chaim is explaining the logical progression of existence, (as opposed to chronological. Example, 2 is always after 1 logically, but chronologically they could come into existence at the same instant). Starting right at the beginning, at the very first, at the very deepest, level of existence.
The Sefer starts by saying that this very first level is where we conceptualize existence without its forms, without its definitions.(Which means that we give it no limits) Existence in its ultimate purity is obviously the first level of existence (seems very similar to the age old concept of 'Choimer Ve'tzurah'. But while it is regularly understood as "Matter and Form, we see it here as Exsitence and Form)
Now, once we postulate this unlimited existence (Ein Sof)we want to progress to the next level, to the level of differentiation in existence. But we are confronted with a conundrum, namely, being that we have established a First Step of Unlimited Total Existence, we cannot go anywhere from there for we have effectually closed any possibility for any "other" existences. Existence that knows no boundaries is all invasive, is All, period.
How is it possible to even consider postulating any 'next step' when this first step is all encompassing, this unlimited Existence does not allow for anything else other than this pure Ein Sof. There is no place for anything else, for wherever anything else wants to be, it is already occupied by this limitless Existence.
Yet, (the Sefer goes on), this very same Beli Gevul, "wills" for a world so that It can be realized as Rachum Chanun etc.
EXPLANATION; OF “WILL”
Now, when the word 'Will' is used here it is in the sense of free will, for He/It is not constrained by any characteristics or concepts, which lead It/Him to do anything. So that whatever the next level may be we have to agree that it is not in any way a 'matter of course' from this first pure Existence.
We will always have to realize that it is not a "natural or logical" necessity. In common terminology we would call it a 'whim'. Nothing in the 'nature' or 'character' of this first Existence leads to this next step, for there is no 'character' at all there.
We claim a next step not by logical inference (which would then mean that it is a logical necessity) but simply by observing the brute facts.
We are confronted with the fact of something (seemingly) other than this first Existence. We then obviously ascertain that this Existence wanted or “willed” something else. (We are very clever here, we "know" what He wants by dint of seeing what He did. Be'Bchinas this kid complaining "Rebbe, Moshie Hut Mich Gevolt Geben a Potch, so the Rebbe asks him Ve'Azoi Veistu? Veil Er Hut Mir Gegeben").
EXPLANATION OF EIN SOF WANTING TO BE REALIZED AS RACHUM, CHANUN:
Although we know that Existence has no character traits as discussed above, if we can identify Its "whims" as it express itself in our reality, we will call these 'whims' Its character traits as It relates to us.
Think of a person with a split personality who always relates to you in a certain manner. You will identify his character traits (only as a practical matter) as per his consistent relation to you. You will know that he has a whole other set of characteristics, but when you are only interested in how this person relates and affects you, those characteristics are what matters.
In sum;
However Existence express itself to us, we will call those expression Its character traits. Simply as a practical matter on how to relate to It.
The Sefer (as per Pesukey HaTorah) identifies these expressions/characteristics as Rachum Chanun etc.It is then fair to say that because He wanted to be Rachum, Chanun etc.. He therefore created the world, for as above (with that child), if that is what is expressed it obviously is what It/He wants to express.
So we are now faced with this conundrum of how do we somehow logicaly conceptualize a reality that encompasses an Unlimited Existence [Ein Sof] yet still allows for other exitences as well.
The Sefer's solution; We can somehow conceptualize this unlimited Existence, contracting itself so as to allow for other existence to exist. (If my memory serves me well this will be explained by our Magid Shiur at another Shiur)
AD KAAN TOICHEN HASEFER. (With some explanation added here and there, I might say)
------------------------------------------------
The Magid Shiur then posed the following questions.
1) a- Why the Sefer uses Ein Sof Rather than HaKodush Boruch Hu? "Hakodush" refers to His Being proper, and gives us the notion that He is Kodush Umufrash, completely out of our reality etc. Whereas Ein Sof only talks about the fact that this Being is never ending. It doesn't strongly relay the notion that His Essence is completely Beyond.
b- If already talking about its limitlessness He should be referred to as Ein Techilah. That, somehow makes us think more about His whole Kiyum (I'm not clear on this second point).
2) If we are talking about God, and Him/It being totally beyond (disregarding the lack of Hadgasha of this point by using the name Ein Sof, as per par. 1), how can we ask any questions as if we have some knowledge of His/Its characteristics? How are we positing that He/It is all over, so much so that there's no room for anything else. What do we know, and why are we talking about the realm of 'BEYOND'?
These questions leads Chabad Chasidus to interpret the text as follows;
We are avadai not talking about HaKodush... He is way beyond. We are already referring to a world of Hagballah and in that world (which we are in there solidly huh) we should ask ourselves what is the deepest level of "beyond" we can abstract while still on terra firma. What is the ultimate abstraction we can have of our reality? Which will tell us what the first (logical) level/cause of our existence is.
Our consciousness of reality is inextricably bound to limits/Hagboles. Consciousness and awareness is all about defining reality, which means realizing its limits. So it would seem that we shouldn’t be able to conceptualize other than limits. Yet there is one step further that we can go, namely, theorizing about negating these limits. Maybe we cannot conceptualize it, but we can theorize about taking away the limits of everything and anything. That is presumably the closest we can get to the "beyond".
To sum up;
We know that (our) Core Existence [Havayah] is completely beyond conception but we still want to relate conceptually to (our) Core Existence at the deepest level possible. So we came up with Unlimited.We will call that level God (although we know that at that level It is already in a Levush) because conceptually that is our ultimate Existence.
[It may very well be possible to "experience" God non-conceptually and there we can presumably go deeper than the level we have now. This is a whole other topic of discussion]
In Sum;
This Unfathomable Beyond gets expressed at our level by the term Ein Sof. That is the ultimate we can go on a conceptual level. We may phrase this as follows;
The Beyond as it enters/shines into our conceptual framework is concieved as Ein Sof
Please note, it is not the Beyond that has diminished its fullness of being, it is that we have limited our receiving capabilites due to us only accepting concepts.
The above narrative doesn't seem to require any Dogma whatsoever.
All the above is only my interpretation of what our Esteemed Magid Shiur has explained to us along the course of these shiurim.It would be wonderful to have input from all participants and especially from the Magid Shiur.
Ok guys it's really late and I wasn't kidding about the mikvah.
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