Friday, January 16, 2009

As always, this writing is a work in progress.


In the previous shiur we have the following;

“Our consciousness of reality is inextricably bound to limits/Hagboles. Consciousness and awareness is all about defining reality, which means realizing its limits. So it would seem that we shouldn’t be able to conceptualize other than limits. Yet there is one step further that we can go, namely, theorizing about negating these limits. Maybe we cannot conceptualize it, but we can theorize about taking away the limits of everything and anything. That is presumably the closest we can get to the "beyond".

In Sum;This Unfathomable Beyond gets expressed at our level by the term Ein Sof. That is the ultimate we can go on a conceptual level. We may phrase this as follows;The Beyond as it enters/shines into our conceptual framework is concieved as Ein Sof”



From the above paragraphs it would seem that we can logically assume that in the realm of Hagbalah we can identify the Ein Sof.

Yet, how can we really go outside of Hagboleh? Isn’t it contradictory to say that a mugbal goes/sees outside of itself? Aren’t you then saying that it is not mugbal? Yet here we are conceptualizing about it nevertheless.

It seems that although we can conceptualize/theorize about this level, it is not a natural byproduct of being Mugbal, it would be and additional element in our being (i.e. over and above our existence in the ‘limited/defined realm)




Looking at the above from a different angle, let’s talk about ‘consciousnesses. We can’t really understand consciousness while being completely within the realm of Hagaboleh. In Hagboleh there are only defined entities, there’s nothing sort of outside Hagboleh looking in. There would then be no “I” that is conscious.

So in essence, when we “theorize about negating these limits” we have entered into a new realm, the realm of Ohr Ein Sof. That would then be the deepest (semi)conceptual level of our being/existence.

It is, then, not something that comes part and parcel along with the realm of Hagabalah. If so, from our point of view (we always talk about ‘our point of view’ because we never talk from the point of view of the Beyond, see previous Shiur) we see this Ein Sof as ‘willed’ not automatic.
But on the other hand, by doing that (i.e. seeing it as willed) we are then completely separating It from the Beyond, and making it just another defined entity. (see later why “will” implies separation from the entity that is doing the willing)

Hmm… in a tight spot here, eh. To will or not to will, that is the question.

Yet on the other hand (the last hand, promise) it does come along (i.e. it’s deduced) from our conceptualization of reality.

So in the end we see it now as an integral part of our hagbalahdig existence, but we also understand that from the standpoint of pure Hagbalah we wouldn’t see this Ein Sof, hence it is not a necessary deduction from Hagbalah.

Yeaaahh, huuuh, ummmm, ok I'm with you there, but we gotta start somewhere.

12 comments:

  1. Ok, so you're starting off by saying that the only way we are able to be conscious about limits is if we are transcending these limits, so far I'm with you.

    Then you go on to say that being able to do that implies that we are in the level of Unlimited, because we are outside 'limit' looking in. Here I'm sorta hanging in with you there, (my problem is that theoretically we can just be within a more expansive limit and therefore we will be apprised and effected by all these smaller entities. Yet, I need some clarification on how a bigger limit is conscious of a smaller one. Or, better yet, can we have some simple explanation of consciousness? yeah sure).

    In the next step you claim that this transcendance is not a logical outcome of the realm of limit. Which should be obvious for it is after all outside of it, it transcends it.

    Although I would still argue, that in order to even have coherence of the term 'limit' we have already transcended limit. So in essence, by simply thinking of "the realm of limit" we are also thinking and acknowledging the realm of 'outside limit'. (it seems like you're arguing this point too)

    You plod along saying that once things are outside the 'constraints' of limit (not sure i konw what that really means) no rules apply and nothing is 'necessary'. Therefore this 'transcendance' is willed not automatic. I'll even give you that.


    What I definitely don't understand is how this all is related to eyn sof's being seperate from Atzmus.
    Honestly, I don't know how all this affects anyting at all? (this is a question not an offensive remark)

    And I'm definitely with you on the last line.

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  2. I thought I was at this shiur. But apparently not. I do not remember any of the above being discussed. This shiur must be like the Mana, you can interpret it any way you wish. What is apparent though is that Al_Gabai_Lovon seems to have been hovering between gevul and bli-gevul, consciousness and unconsciousness, when writing this post.

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  3. You thought you were at the shiur, but apparently not. hmmm. And "I" am hovering between consciousness and unconsciousness. Nice try.

    Hovering aside, I do need to tie the above in to the shiur. So I'll give it my best shot.

    BUT, on the chance that you actually were attending the shiur why don't you go ahead and give us your flavor.

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  4. I still don't have a clear understanding of the Shiur.
    Yet I'd like to write these few snippets and maybe all of us together can figure something out or at least know enough to ask our Magid Shiur pertinent questions.

    1)

    The Shiur was about the seemingly contradictory issue of Ohr Ein Sof being ‘willed’ from Atzmus/Beyond, and not an inevitable result of Atzmus. Yet at the same time being non-directional emanation from Atzmus, which seems to say that it’s not ‘willed’.

    The explanation was that it is only willed inasmuch that Atzmus has the freedom of discontinuing this Ohr Ein Sof. So it would be a non-directional emanation, it doesn’t need a will in order to exist, but Atzmus has the veto rights, which allows us to say that it’s not an inevitable aspect of Atzmus.

    2)

    Natural expression is the only true expression, i.e. being caught in an ungaurded moment is when our true nature is shining through. 'Will' is a defined direction within the entity that wills. For we are saying A wills X we have made A bigger than X for it is encompassing X. So we have made X be specific, not as A's total fullness


    Once there's a will to express it is already specfic and guided by that specifcation.

    Ohr is me'en hamoer in the sense that it is nonfocused nondirectional, a natural unwilled byproduct of Atzmus. Yet herein lies the rub, we are actually sayin that there's a "product" (creation) from Atzmus that is unwilled. God is Muchrach in His Creation.

    The above snippets do not shed any light on how my post is connected to the Shiur. (heck, maybe it isn't) I don't even know if it sheds any light whatsoever. Here are some of my questions on the Shiur. Ve'chol HaMoisef Moisifin Lo.

    Question; How can we talk about Atzmus/Beyond how it wills etc.

    Question: How can we even think for a moment that Atzmus, which is not bound by ANYTHING, would have any aspect which we would call inevitable.

    Question: Why are we concerned if it is willed or not?

    Question; What’s this semantic game in the explanation that it’s not willed yet willed.


    Possible answer to question 1 and 2,

    We are always talking about our limited/Hagbalahdig way of perceiving reality. In essence we take Hagbalah as a given, for if we are to explain anything we would do it within this framework, and if we go out of this framework we have effectively stopped explaining, which is fine as long as we admit to that and we stop using terms, words, and names. We just have to remain silent.
    But we don’t want to remain silent, because our gameplan is to go to the farthest level within this framework, albeit with the awareness that it’s not really the whole story, and that there’s really a Beyond which is ‘out there’.
    (If we remain silent and just ‘live’ true reality from within the deeper aspect of our being (Lmaaloh MiTaam VeDaas) we are disenfranchising part of our reality, namely, our limited/Gvul part. This could be an answer to Anonymous of the first shiur on why we try to conceptualize God when we know we can go deeper by going beyond concept )

    The above being true we have to frame our whole discussion in the context of how these issues are reflected in Hagabalh realm.

    Now if it’s true that limit implies or necessitates unlimited we have essentially said that Atzmus is Muchrach to create Ohr Ein Sof. This and only this was the issue, so this takes care of question 2.

    Now the question remains, if gvul does or does not imply Bli Gvul/Ein Sof?

    The response is that Gvul cannot pick itself up by its own bootstraps, it cannot imply Beli Gvul, it cannot go outside of itself.

    It’s only through our consciousness which is outside Gvul that we can see this Beli Gvul/Ein Sof. Yet we see it in conceptual/gvul terms, we see it in relation to our concepts. Yes this relation is on how it is NOT Gvul, yet it’s a relation nevertheless

    Yes, in the end we are right to say that we see how Gvul implies Bli Gvul/EinSof (Ein Sof is an aspect of the Beyond) and from that perspective it’s inevitable, unwilled, hence not specified or separate from Atzmus. Yet this happens because we have consciousness, which is outside Gvul (which gives us allowance, nay, calls for this whole concept not to be Muchrach for only gvul could be muchrach)

    Our ability to see limit allows us to deduce (Hechrach) the Unlimited.
    We see it as willed because it stems from our Unlimited consciousness but through this consciousness we find a Hechrach to this Ein Sof

    Willed yet not willed.

    This is how we see Ein Sof from our Gvul prespective

    This is where we bridge the gap from Ein Sof to Gvul.

    Or in the vernacular we would say “THE ULTIMATE BRIDGE FROM NOWHERE.

    Mr. Anonymous if you have a chance please hover a little bit on this piece and let me know if you find it worthy of putting it into the post proper.

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  5. Hi, Greyerea welcome & wow! a writing style you gotta love,
    But what’s that generosity you just keep on saing to Al-gabaiI’ll give you this & that, this is a remark not an offensive question.

    Al-gabai wherever you are hovering, there some real worthwhile stuff going on ther,e you are doing a great job, I’m sure it takes some precious time of yours & we appreciate it.
    Let me address your post as well as the end of your last comment, specifically were you said
    ” It’s only through our consciousness which is outside Gvul that we can see this Beli Gvul/Ein Sof. Yet we see it in conceptual/gvul terms, we see it in relation to our concepts. Yes this relation is on how it is NOT Gvul, yet it’s a relation nevertheless”
    I’ll try to give a brief analogy.
    One is, & always was sitting in a sealed room, that’s his entire reality. the roof over this room as far as he can see is floating, it is not supported by anything that is within his reality, he is presented now with the problem that this is against the laws of gravity, at this juncture he can claim that either this disproves the laws of gravity, or that this simple argument proves that there is something out of his reality (out of his room) that supports it. I think we agree there was no need to leave his reality but that all these calculations are simple 1+1 within his reality, & the reason behind that is because you just need to flip the argument around a bit, instead of saying he is aware that it is supported by something out of his reality, all he is saying is, it is supported (he sees that therefore aware of it) not by something within his reality,(again he sees this negation). please explain why being aware that there is something beyond our Gvul reality, proves anything about us having a consciousness which is outside Gvul ?.
    BTW in regards of Bli Gvul,I think that saying that the laws of the Gvul reality
    has presented are proven wrong, or to say that it is supported by something outside of gvul. both are 1 &the same, basically saying that Gvul including all of its arguments cannot support itself

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  6. Who is magid shiur? When is shiur? Where?

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  7. From Maybe-Definitely to Definitely Maybe:

    If Bli Gevul only means the "negation of the finite", something "beyond", like black pointing to not black, or even all colors pointing to no color, than you can "posit" it from your reality. Or if something/someone is floating in the air, you can posit that it is not understood to you because it is either magic or something that is unfathomable, but it REMAINS BEYOND YOU.
    But I think what Al_Gabai_Lavan is refering to in the "beyond" is not as the negation of anything/everything, but rather the "core essence of everything", the beyond that is the core - atzmus u'mhus - of everything and nevertheless not defined limited by anything/everything (like your car can be color red, but color red is not limited to your car or cars in general) -
    and in order to transcend yourself - not only posit it, but actually strip away your gevul, your conceptions, your inhibitions, and all your faculties - and connect with that ultimate "beyond" - you need to somehow strip away the finite and get yourself to hover into the beyond...
    (If this is not what Al_Gabai_Lavan was saying, then I at least hope it is at least somewhat close to what he was saying that the Magid Shiur said...)

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  8. Definitely,

    You are proving it from the consciousness of 'man',. I wouldn't think it's a good argument, for I readily agree that consciousness is capable of going outside it's boundary, or more precisely, consciousness has no boundary.

    Let's think of anything other than consciousness, take any object any gvul and simply ask if it is capable of going outside of its gvul. It would simply be a contradiction of terms, if this is its gvul then we gotta stick to that. if this machine's gvul is X then that's where it ends.

    So if we would be gvul we will simply not be able to transcend outside of that. A is A is A. If we are able to transcend Gvul X, then X is obviously not our gvul. If we are able to transcend ALL Gvul then All Gvul is obviously not our Gvul. We are then obviously beyond Gvul.


    I don't understand your last paragraph (starting By The Way)

    Mr. Ploini Almoini,

    I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of my interpretation of the Magid Shiur's interpretaion of R' Chaim Vital's interpretation.... of...
    But it's somewhat close.

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  9. Ploini,

    A part of my response to you is missing.

    While I understand that you see our Bli Gvul in the level of complete beyond (lmaaloh mitaam vodaas), in our capacity to simply lose our existence (bitul hayesh or bitul bemtzius) I see it even in the level of consciousness. Even where we still conceptualize things I see the necessity of seeing consciousness as outside Hagbalah. As argued above.

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  10. i would love to contribute. mostly stuff about chassidus. its decline and rise again. how do i go about it?

    its great stuff, btw.

    thanks

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  11. Sure thing,
    It seems like you have already wrote a few comments. Or are we dealing with a few different Anonymous'?
    In order to write a post please send an email to Kolbayaar@gmail.com,

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